Classic: Memes, archetypes, and the meaning we live by: Jordan Peterson vs Susan Blackmore

Unbelievable?

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Christianity, Religion & Spirituality

4.6 • 2.3K Ratings

🗓️ 29 April 2025

⏱️ 53 minutes

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Summary

In this classic edition of Unbelievable? - The Big Conversation we ask: do we need God to make sense of life? In a 2018 debate, Jordan Peterson and Susan Blackmore explore the psychology of belief through the lenses of memes and archetypes. Peterson argues that religious structures underpin even secular life, while Blackmore sees religion as a cultural virus—sometimes beneficial, often dangerous. Though deeply influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition, Peterson refuses to be drawn on the divinity of Jesus, framing belief in terms of psychological necessity rather than doctrinal commitment. Blackmore, a committed atheist, champions naturalism and memes as the primary drivers of human culture. Together with host Justin Brierley, they wrestle with whether meaning, gratitude, and moral action require a divine foundation, or whether human constructs alone are sufficient. More from The Big Conversation.show Buy Jordan Peterson's new book We Who Wrestle With God and the best-selling 12 Rules for Life 🎙️ Subscribe & Share → Don’t miss more thought-provoking debates! 📌 Stay Connected & Join the Conversation 📍 Twitter (X):@UnbelievableFE 📍 Facebook:@PremierUnbelievable 📍 Instagram:@Premier.Unbelievable 📍 TikTok:@PremierUnbelievable

Transcript

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0:00.0	Right now in Hackney, there's a child waiting,
0:03.0	wondering if anyone will open their door and their heart.
0:07.0	Hackney needs more foster carers and wants to know what's stopping you from fostering.
0:12.0	If you have a spare room and are ready to make a difference, don't wait.
0:16.0	With a wide range of support provided, you might be the foster carer a Hackney child needs.
0:22.2	For more information, visit hackney.gov.uk, forward slash fostering.
0:30.3	Welcome to The Big Conversation here on Unbelievable.
0:33.8	The Big Conversation is a series of shows exploring faith, science, philosophy and what it means to be human in association with the Templeton Religion Trust.
0:42.9	Today, our conversation topic is the psychology of belief and do we need God to make sense of life?
0:49.6	Well, the big conversation partners I'm sitting down with today are Jordan B. Peterson and Susan Blackmore.
0:55.4	Jordan Peterson is a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto and author of the new book
1:00.4	12 Rules for Life, An Antidote to Chaos. Jordan rose to prominence in 2016 when his stance on
1:06.9	free speech and the threat of legal action for refusing to use transgender pronouns created
1:11.2	a media storm. But since then, many new people have discovered his academic work, including
1:15.8	a very popular lecture series on the psychology and wisdom of ancient Bible stories.
1:21.0	And his new book, Twelve Rules for Life, distills much of the wisdom into a guide to leading
1:26.1	a meaningful life. Our other guest is Susan Blackmore. She's a psychologist, lecturer, and author of books on
1:32.3	consciousness and evolutionary psychology, including The Meme Machine and Seeing Myself the New Science
1:38.5	of Out-of-Body Experiences. And she views many forms of religion as fundamentally negative for human
1:43.7	flourishing.
1:44.5	She's written, for instance, that religions are an example par excellence of memeplexes that use wicked tricks to ensure their own survival.
1:52.6	Well, today we'll be looking at the psychological roots of faith beliefs.
	...

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