Welcome to the Dispatch Podcast. I'm Declan Garvey, executive editor of The Dispatch, and today I am talking to Jonathan Carl, chief Washington correspondent for ABC News and the author of a new book called Tired of Winning, Donald Trump and the end of the grand old party.

That's out today in bookstores everywhere.

I should disclose, I am not a disinterested third party in this conversation. I've been working with

John I'm tired of winning since October 2022, but as a result I'd like to think I have some

pretty unique insight into his reporting process, and I hope this conversation helps bring listeners behind the scenes, as well as shed light on some of the true motivations driving Donald Trump's third presidential run. Jonathan Carl.

Welcome to the dispatch time, because thanks so much for being here.

Yeah, great for being here.

Yeah, great to be here.

So you've got this new book out that you can see here Tuesday, November 14th, called

Tired of winning.

And before we get too deep into the conversation,

I should disclose that I am not impartial moderator here.

I've been working with you on this project for what it's more than a year at this point right?

Yeah you you came in at the inception and had a major impact on this book so thank you for that it's been it's been a pleasure

But it's your it's your third book about Donald Trump following front row at the Trump show in 2020 betrayal in 2021.

This title, tired of winning, has a little bit of finality to it in some ways.

Do you think is, is this your last Trump book or do you see this what's the what's the word for

a series with for tetrology yeah I should disclose that when I wrote betrayal the

subtitle was the final act of the Trump show. Now I've tried to explain

I'm not I'm not a political guy so I spin is something I usually like to pierce not to do myself

but I tried a little bit to say, you know, a final act,

final act, you know, after the final act, you often have an encore or, you know,

...