This is exactly right.

This story contains adult content and language, along with references to sexual assault.

Listener discretion is advised.

I think it's important to doing these cases not to forget that there are real consequences for the victims.

These consequences last a lifetime.

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a non-fiction author and journalism professor in Austin, Texas. I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor in Austin, Texas.

I'm also the co-host of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right.

And throughout my career, research for my many audio and book projects has taken me around the world.

On Wicked Words, I sit down with the people I've met along the way,

amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, and podcasters

who have investigated and reported on notorious true crime cases.

This is about the choices writers make, both good and bad,

and it's a deep dive into the unpublished details behind their stories.

L.A. Times reporter Christopher Gawford was the voice behind the hit podcast, Dirty John,

and now he has a new podcast that covers crimes that made headlines in Los Angeles,

stories like the murder of actress Rebecca Schaefer at the hands of a stalker.

He tells me about his show, Crimes of the Times.

So I wanted you to talk first about the Rebecca Schaefer case, and it really piqued my interest

because I just a few weeks ago interviewed Marcia Clark.

For her new book, which I'm also doing a show on. Yes, the Barbara Graham case.

Good. Oh, man, what a case. And she's such a good storyteller. So I talked to her and I said, you know, I think everybody knew her from OJ, but I remember being younger and

seeing her reading about the Rebecca Schaefer case, because that case was my, really my

...