Welcome to the Breakpoint podcast. I'm John Stone Street. I am really pleased today to have a conversation that I hope will bring more light than heat. I'm going to welcome on the program today. Two guests. First is Reverend Mark Toole. Mark is the president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy. He's also the editor of IRD's

Foreign Policy and National Security Journal Providence, which actually has a lot to do with what it

looks like to see the intersections of religion and democracy correctly. And joining Mark and

myself is Dr. Andrew Walker. Andrew is the Associate Professor of Christian ethics and apologetics, the associate dean

for the School of Theology, and the director of the Carl Lefe Hedinary Institute for Evangelical

Engagement at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Just a few days ago on Twitter, I saw

Andrew and Mark have an exchange. These are two guys that I respect greatly, and I think an awful

lot about how they understand and think about the political process and the intersection of faith,

religion, and the larger society. And I saw a Twitter exchange between Andrew and Mark that I

found absolutely fascinating. It had to do with the events at the Capitol

and the role that religion played, especially Christianity versus pagan religion, and

inspiring and inciting the insurrection that we saw at the Capitol just recently. And I

invited both of them almost immediately to join me on the podcast to take this conversation

off Twitter and go deeper. And so that's what I want to do today. So gentlemen, it's so great

to have you on the program. Andrew, I got to say with all those titles, you should have a tie on.

That's all I've got to say. Thanks, John. It's good with you today. No, it's good. You guys

had a really interesting conversation on Twitter. It started,

Andrew, I think you started, you wrote, after seeing the role that civil religion, Christianity played

in Wednesday's events, I'm all the more convinced that religious liberty is absolutely urgent

for us as Baptist and evangelicals to prioritize. And then you ask why, and you go through

a pretty long thread. And I want to, it was an interesting connection to make kind of what we

saw on Wednesday at the Capitol, the idea of civil religion. Some people would say pagan religion.

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