I'm Roberta Glass and you're listening to my true crime report.

Today, I'm talking with author Tom O'Neill, author of the great new book, Chaos, Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the 60s.

So stay tuned.

So welcome Tom O'Neill.

So this book is called Chaos.

Did you call it chaos because of the chaos that Manson created or project chaos?

It's a play on word.

So, you know, people who read the book will understand the double entendre about two-thirds

the way through the book.

But the obvious meaning of chaos for the uninitiated who just sees the word we thought

it worked as well both ways.

Sorry, I got a little cough.

Sorry.

And so there's also a real kind of like self-conscious bit in this book about you being a

labeled a conspiracy theorist.

Is there any way to write about MK Ultra and this kind of material without being called

a conspiracy theorist, do you think?

You got to tell me.

I don't know.

That was what I was hoping.

It was difficult.

It's difficult material to approach, and that's why it was really important for me to cite

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