Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Centre of European Reforms podcast, unpacking Europe.

With me to discuss Labour's position on Brexit and what

Stama's new government will mean for our relationship with Europe is the CEO's director, Charles Grant,

and Neil Kinnock, leader of the Labour Party between 1983 and 92, and a European Commissioner from

1995 to 2004, before being elevated to the House of Lords in 2005.

Welcome to the podcast, both.

Thank you very much.

Nice to be here again.

So you both last joined me on the podcast in September of last year

when these questions were all hypothetical.

Neil, you were there for Kirstarmer's victory speech.

What was the atmosphere like in the room?

And how do you think Starman's

feeling right now? It was an extraordinary atmosphere, as you would expect. The funny thing, it was

triumphant, yes, because of a huge win, but not triumphalist, which is exactly the mood that was

appropriate. Because here is a get on with the job man, and it's not simply a declaration of

branding, but it goes right down to his toenails. He's enjoying himself now because he's getting on

and doing it, which is a massive improvement on simply talking about it, which is about the best

you can do in opposition.

And obviously, as you said, it was a huge victory for Labour and the Conservatives have

completely defeated. But vote share for Labour is lower than it was in 2017.

Obviously, turnout was quite low, especially in Wales.

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