From the Centre for European Reform, this is the CEO podcast.

It is a critical moment. If we do not act with urgency, we would then severely undermine the liberal order.

Brexit means Brexit, and we're going to make a success of it.

The wind is back in Europe's sales.

We have now a window of opportunity, but it will not stay open forever.

So hello, you're listening to the CER podcast with me, Beth Oppenheim. And today I'm talking to

Ian Bond, who's the CERR's Foreign Policy Director, and Agatha Kostinska, Jakobovska, who is a senior

research fellow in our Brussels office. Hi, both. Hi. Hello. And today we're going to talk about

democracy and the rule of law in the EU, on which you have both just published a paper.

So Article 2 of the Treaty of the European Union says that the EU is founded on the shared values of democracy, the rule of law and respect for fundamental rights.

But we've seen that rule of law has hit European headlines over the past couple of

years with high profile incidents of member states backsliding. So listeners will be familiar with

the EU Commission's legal dispute with Poland over the independence of the Polish courts

and with the disciplinary action initiated by the European Parliament against Hungary over its breaches of core values.

But your paper makes the really important point, I think, that respect for the rule of law is not only declining in central Europe,

although media coverage might have us think otherwise, it's actually declining across the EU.

So, Ian, tell us, how is it that you know that respect for the rule of law is indeed declining in the EU?

And do we know why?

Well, one of the good things about this subject is that it is widely internationally studied.

And so there are a lot of international indicators that you can go to to find out what

the situation of the rule of law in different EU member states is. So one of the most comprehensive

is run by the World Justice Project and they look at a wide range of indicators for about

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