From the Centre for European Reform, this is the CEO podcast.

It is a critical moment. If we do not act with urgency, we would then severely undermine the liberal order.

Brexit means Brexit, and we're going to make a success of it.

The wind is back in Europe's sales.

We have now a window of opportunity, but it will not stay open forever.

Hello and welcome to the CEO podcast.

My name is Sophia Beshe and I'm in conversation with Sam Lowe today, who's a senior research fellow at the Center for European Reform. We're here to talk about what does Brexit mean for trade in services. Now Sam, you wrote a policy brief on this at the end of last year. Because I work with you, I know that this matters

and I roughly know what it means.

But frankly, other than you,

not a lot of people seem to be talking about this,

even though it is, as you will explain, important.

So what are we talking about when we talk about services?

Why does it matter and why does nobody seem to care?

Foo, it's a good question.

And I think we know from the Brexit debate we just talk about goods all the time.

I think one of the reasons for that is services are quite intangible.

It's actually quite difficult to explain what you mean when you're talking about services.

And one of the examples that I like to give is essentially anything you can sell that you can't drop on your foot.

So be that a haircut or legal services or accounting services or PR.

These are all things that you can sell, but you don't necessarily see.

It might have tangible outcomes.

I mean, if you're a lawyer, you have some legal documents, right?

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