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Hello and welcome to the BBC Gardner's World magazine podcast, brought to you by the team here at the magazine.

Join us as we chat all things gardening with the nation's favourite experts.

Is there a grass ceiling in horticulture?

Women have played a central role in horticulture for centuries,

from early plant hunters to more recent gardeners and plantswomen.

And yet, the industry remains rather male-dominated,

and few would argue that there isn't a need for more progress.

Hello, I'm Catherine Mansley, and I'm joined by eminent gardener and plantswoman Carol Klein

to get her opinion of the grass ceiling and find out if and how she thinks the industry needs to

change. Hello, Carol. Hello. Welcome to the Garden As Well podcast. Welcome. This is very

controversial cut. I know. It's a more controversial topic than some of our normal topics,

but I thought it was one that was worth exploring. It's worth exploring, yeah, and I'm not known

for being controversial, so. Never. I mean, firstly, I guess the grass ceiling was sort of, it was, you know, your

phrase, you coined it. Do you think that is? Well, it sounded as though it was my concept,

but in actual fact, it was Neil. It was a man who invented that. A man who invented them.

Well, he didn't just invent it. He recognized it. He recognized that everything you just said was absolutely true.

I mean, things are changing. Things are changing a lot. Thank goodness, not before time.

Just to give you an example, historical example, when the Victorian Medal of Honour,

which is the highest sort of award that the RHS can bestow on anybody. When it was first

...