These ideas of freedom and equality, for instance, are not themselves self-evident in their

consequences or self-executing.

They require us to figure out what do we do with freedom?

What is the meaning of freedom?

And it requires us to recognize, at the most basic level, that America is an argument.

We are meant to argue perpetually.

We are meant to contest the meaning of freedom.

We are meant to contest perpetually the tension between freedom and equality.

When you have too much freedom, you are trampling on people's equality.

When you have too much emphasis on leveling and equality, you end up trampling people's

freedom and that those tensions, the tensions that go all the way back, if you're a fan

of Hamilton and the musical, that go all the way back to those rat battles between Jefferson

and Hamilton.

These are arguments we are meant perpetually to have.

And so what it means to be an American is to be perpetually arguing over what it means

to be an American and to be grappling with the contents of this creed.

It's not like, oh, here's the creed, it has all the answers for us.

Here's the creed, it has all the questions for us.

This is a pleasure and privilege to welcome to the podcast, The Founder and CEO of Citizen

University, author of Gosh, what is it, six seven books, including his latest Become America.

And someone I've admired from afar for a long time, Eric Liu, welcome, Eric.

Andrew, great to be with you.

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