Hi, this is Natalie Hoffman of Flying Free Now, and you're listening to the Flying Free

podcast, a support resource for Women of Faith, looking for hope and healing from hidden

emotional and spiritual abuse.

Welcome to episode 67 of the Flying Free Podcast. Today we're going to be talking with

Dave Orson. He has he is a pastor he's been a pastor for 42 years.

He's currently serving a congregation in Drake, Colorado,

happily married man with eight sons.

I want to ask you a little bit about that in a minute, because that's pretty fascinating.

He has a website called Grace for the Heart.org.

So when we're done with this interview, if you want to go and see some of the things he's

written and subscribe to his articles you can do that grace for the heart

that org today we're going to be talking about the link between legalism and narcissism.

And so, Dave, first of all, let's go back to that eight boys thing.

And then I want to, and then I want you to tell us why you got into, you know, researching and studying

and experience diving into this world of legalism and narcissism.

And I'm fascinated to know how you link the two of them.

I mean I've seen that as well in my own experience but just finding out how you are making those connections is going to be really interesting.

So first of all, the Eight Boys. Tell us about that.

We have eight sons. We have, I think what's the oldest is 42 and the youngest is 23 and we used to tell people and anybody with

a big family probably understands this they'd say well how old are your kids and we'd say well pick an age you

you know and all their names start with jay which just drove people nuts

oh wow how could you even remember all that we just go by just drove people nuts. Oh, wow.

...