Hey folks, Joyce Vance here. This week there are new developments in the Donald Trump investigations.

Former Vice President Pence has invoked the Constitution's speech or debate clause to avoid testifying in the DOJ's January 6 investigation.

Meanwhile, Special Counsel Jack Smith is also seeking testimony from Trump White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows

and Trump lawyer Evan Corpren in the January 6 and classified documents investigations.

And in Fulton County, Georgia, a grand jury has recommended perjury charges against unnamed witnesses in the investigation and Trump's efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election.

In other news, the Department of Justice has decided not to bring sex trafficking charges against Florida Representative Matt Kayes.

Preet Barara and I discuss all of this and more on the Cafe Insider Podcast. Today we're sharing a clip from the episode with listeners of Stay Tune.

To hear our full conversation and access all other Cafe Insider content, try the membership for just $1 for one month.

You can do that at cafe.com slash insider. That's cafe.com slash insider. We look forward to having you as a part of the insider community.

So reportedly, the Justice Department has told Congressman Matt Kayes and his lawyers that notwithstanding a year's long investigation of Matt Kayes into potential sexual misconduct with a minor and some other things.

That they are not planning to bring charges. And I respect that. And if they don't think charges are appropriate, they're not appropriate.

It is sort of interesting though how much expectations were raised reasonably among the general public and I think lawyers who follow these things. And I thought you and I would spend some time talking about this.

There was a point where I really thought based on a number of factors and signals that the likelihood of Matt Kayes getting charged was high.

Now, this is a cautionary tale. So when people are reading signs and the tea leaves with respect to investigations, whether it's Donald Trump or anyone else, you know, it doesn't happen until it happens.

And the main reason why I thought there was a likelihood of prosecution and I'm wondering what you think choice is with great fanfare, the law for cooperating defendant, Joel Greenberg.

It was very ostentatiously to my mind cooperating with the federal government with the DOJ very clearly in connection with trying to get lenience for himself by, you know, ratting on as some people would say.

Other people, including Matt Gates. And there was this moment that I remember being on television and talking about and finding it very stark where the lawyer for Joel Greenberg, Fritz Scheller, said in May 2021 publicly.

I'm sure Matt Gates does not feel very comfortable today.

Which I took to be the assign that, you know, not a random late person, not someone unconnected to the matter, but a lawyer for the person who was planning to plead guilty for purposes of lenience and cooperating to provide substantial assistance had some insight into the mindset of prosecutors and the likelihood that they would bring a charge.

Because why otherwise cooperate this guy? Does that make sense to you?

Yeah, it makes total sense to me. And I had the same reaction. I mean, this has always been a little bit of a dicey case when you think about it.

And I'll just go straight to one legal issue that's troubling here because Gates is being investigated for this concern about trafficking or having sex with someone who's underage.

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