Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

Community is one of life's most valuable but increasingly scarce resources.

While we hear about a supposed epidemic of male loneliness, many men still resist joining groups

or struggle to maintain

involvement after initial enthusiasm wanes.

At the show, Frank Schwartz will help us understand the barriers to building male community and how

to overcome them.

Frank is the CEO of F3, a free, all-volunteer men's leadership organization that uses workouts

to bring men together and supports hundreds of decentralized chapters

worldwide. In the first half of our conversation, Frank explains the psychology behind men's

hesitation and join groups, how to navigate the wish stream of idealized community, and why

expecting perfection kills participation. We then discuss what makes leadership in a decentralized

group different from traditional hierarchies,

the importance of embracing messiness, and why allowing men to make their own decisions create stronger leaders than giving them a rulebook to follow. We enter conversation with Frank's

perspective on cultivating patience as a leader and how to measure success when building a community

of men. After the shows over, check out our show notes at AWIM. AtiS slash men's groups.

Frank Shorts, welcome to show. Hey, thanks so much for having me, man. I appreciate it.

So you are, is it the CEO or president of F3?

This is a very good question. And up until a couple years ago, I could have said president, but now CEO, we kind of eliminated the president position.

And the thing about F3 is, and guys who are familiar know, but those who aren't, everything's

kind of very made up.

So we have sort of different names for what we do that are a little bit kind of inside

...