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Hello and welcome to Spectators Book's Book Club podcast. I'm Sam Leith, the literary editor of The Spectator.

We're very pleased to be joined this week by the historical novelist Philippa Gregory, whose new book is The Berlin Traitor, which tells the story of Jane Bullen, like I'm just Rochford.

Philippa, you must by now know the Tudor's... which tells the story of Jane Berlin. If I come to Rochford,

Philippa, you must by now know the Tudors inside out and back to front.

What is it that's the spark for thinking there's another little kind of opening here.

There's another story I can tell.

What was it that made you think Jane is someone we need to look at now?

I think Jane has always been anyone who knows the Tudors at all. Jane has always been a bit of an enigma in the middle of the story, that even the people who have the most cliched and stereotyped

beliefs about the Tudors and the Billins, whether it's Henry very bad or Henry very good and exciting,

whether it's an adulterous, terrible person, or Anne Leader of the Reformation, really, really interesting.

Whatever view you take of them, the problem of what the hell Jane Berlin is doing at the trial of her husband, ancestor, and law for incestuous

...