Hello and welcome to the Spectators Book Club podcast. This year marks the 80th anniversary of the end of the Second World War and for this special episode of the book club, here's a conversation that Sam Leith had with the historian and journalist Max Hastings earlier this year in May to mark the anniversary of D-Day.

Max's new book, Sword, D-Day, T-Day, trial by battle, tells the the story of the individual soldiers who risk their lives as part of Operation Overlord.

We hope you enjoy it.

Max, you have spent a life investigating human conflict.

What is it that first kindled the interest in war in you and how, what is it that keeps

you coming back?

Well, I'm rather ashamed to admit how it started.

I hero worship my father, who'd been war fond on a picture post during the war,

and my various cousins and uncles had all had exciting wars and won military crosses and so on.

And when they all got together and started talking,

they enthused about what an absolutely wonderful time they'd had in the war

and what a glorious romp it was.

And I grew up very much under this spell of thinking at war as a great romp and also feeling

that I was totally unlucky to have missed out on the opportunity to kill even a small German.

And I've really spent the rest of my life learning differently and better.

And I always remember my mother, who was a woman's editor of a picture post during the war,

and she used to rage about those sort of conversations. And you say, don't listen to your father driveling about what fun the war was.

It was hell from beginning to end, the separations, the loneliness,

the dreary food, the shortages, the blackout, even before you started on the bombs.

And of course, my mother was absolutely right. And the other thing I've learned, although

it's true that for a small minority of people who participated in the war, it was a great

adventure which they managed to enjoy.

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