Hello, everyone. Welcome to Conspiruality, where we investigate the intersections of conspiracy

theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience, and authoritarian extremism,

also pseudotherapy, and also BDSM that isn't BDSM and also sex work that doesn't really sex work.

I'm Matthew Remski, and joining me today again is Esme Providence Brown.

Hello.

Hello.

Our correspondent from the world of sex work and social justice, thanks so much for coming back.

We had a lot to talk about last time time and we're going to finish up today.

Yeah, we really, we really went into some deep pockets there. And I think for listeners,

it would be good if you started with our first volley on Kelly Brogan's Divine Dungeon because

we mapped out, not in like a strictly chronological

format, but we mapped out the progression of her neoliberal, you know, sainthood story

ascension into completely deregulated couples therapy and now pseudo sex

therapy coming out of her the medical expertise that allowed her to have a platform to begin with

we're going to be talking about how kelly brogan moved very clearly, very strangely, very enthusiastically. But I would also say

without a lot of preparation or education into the world of BDSM. So you're our expert there,

Esme. Where would you like to start? I mean, the first thing i want to say about the sort of

world of bdsm as a kind of unregulated space is that there is a there is a beauty and a risk

to the nature of it being an unregulated space like it is not a space that has you, you know, we don't, we don't have like our

books that are published and we don't go through certification processes and like so many

things that come up in the pod. Like this is a, this is a grassroots community that has been

built up and it's a lot of peer of peer learning. The barriers to entry are,

...