Mark, thank you very much for joining us.

Thanks for having me, Bronwyn.

Tommy, the world is looking at the United States,

at the extraordinary pictures coming out night after night.

What should the world make of it?

Well, I think the world should be really quite alarmed

because I think that in some ways,

three years of President Trump was all leading to this moment.

A lot of people predicted when Trump was elected

that we might get through this presidency without a major calamity

provided there wasn't a crisis. And now you've got multiple simultaneous crises. First was

obviously the pandemic and President Trump handled that by all accounts very badly.

And now you've got this sort of surge of anger around the country at police brutality,

which in some ways Trump is perhaps the least fit possible leader to deal with.

So I think you've got this congruence of events that are deeply unsettling,

and I think that for people around the world, it's a moment of genuine danger and a moment

of genuine risk, and one hopes that the U.S. gets through it. But I don't think we can take

it for granted that our institutions or our democracy will emerge from this without some lasting damage.

Well, I want to come on to those points.

But let me just ask you this.

Police brutality, killing of a black man, riots after that.

Is that something new?

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