BONUS: Jonathan Powell – “What I discovered in No.10 is how LITTLE power you have”

Inside Briefing with the Institute for Government

Institute for Government

News, Government, Politics

4.5 • 278 Ratings

🗓️ 10 January 2020

⏱️ 22 minutes

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Summary

“You need to persuade the Civil Service. Attacking them is not the way to do it.” As Tony Blair’s Chief of Staff during the New Labour years, Jonathan Powell trod the path of radical reform that Dominic Cummings now walks. In this extended version of his interview in this week’s INSIDE BRIEFING, he tells Sam Macrory of the hidden pitfalls of rapid government reform, the perils of absentee opposition, and the real possibility of the UK breaking up over Brexit. “I think Boris Johnson will survive this year, politically,” he says. “But I don’t think Dominic Cummings will.” Interview by Sam Macrory. Audio production by Alex Rees. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	When New Labour came into power in 1997, you, Tony Blair, Alistair, Alistair,
0:13.5	Campbell, you all had ambitious plans to reform the way Ten Downing Street worked, the way the civil service worked.
0:18.2	So do you have some sympathy with what Dominic Kamenings was trying to do? Yes, I do have some sympathy with the need for reform of the civil service worked. So do you have some sympathy with what Dominic Cummings was trying to do?
0:21.6	Yes, I do have some sympathy with the need for reform of the civil service.
0:25.6	I mean, I was a civil servant for 16 years before I went to work for Tony Blair in opposition in the Labour Party.
0:31.6	And I did see in that time the need for some fairly radical change.
0:35.6	The problem I have with the approach that Dominic Cummings is taking is it more likely to be
0:40.3	counterproductive.
0:41.3	Already the things he was saying have been rowed back by other spokesmen from government
0:47.3	and trying to make it about weirdos rather than about serious change in the civil service
0:53.3	is actually probably counterproductive.
0:55.4	His own time in the Department of Education was not notable for his success in persuading the civil
1:00.3	service to change. And the thing about the civil services, you need to persuade them to change
1:05.7	because they are the vehicle for delivery of the changes that you want in public services.
1:12.3	So simply attacking them doesn't achieve that much. And in fact, in the end, I think probably what Tony said about scars on my back
1:16.4	in changes of civil service, it wasn't the best way to do it. If you want GPs to change the
1:22.6	way they do things, attacking them is not the best way to do it. You do need to take some steps to
1:26.7	make them change the way they do things, but attacking them is not the best way to do it. You do need to take some steps to make them change the way they do things, but attacking them is not the best way to do it.
1:30.5	How much of a difference can one man at the centre make, whatever their ideas and energy?
1:34.7	Only a limited amount. I mean, I understand that Boris Johnson believes in the Great Man theory
1:39.4	of history. And again, I have some sympathy with that, but actually the thing I discovered when you go to number 10 down the street is how little power you have.
1:48.4	There's a myth in British government that number 10 is all-powerful.
	...

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