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I am so happy to have Joe Kelly on the show. You are someone who I've known for many years,

and you're also someone who has a certain way of working with people that I want to make

sure to talk about. You were on the show right at the beginning a couple years ago, which was wonderful, talking about your own personal experiences.

So maybe we'll start with that just to reorient people to who you are and the fact that you are

a former member of a couple things and what you do now. So go for it. Yeah. So my name's Joe Kelly and I

have been working in the field of cold education for 32 years now. And I've had the honor of working

with many families and individuals who are struggling with the issues around being influenced

from one-on-one situations, which

are maybe considered abusive relationships. But some of them even had a spiritual or religious

dimension, even though they appeared to be just an abusive relationship. And the information

that was given to the person who was being

victimized had something to do with some form of spirituality, which locked them in even more

deeply, if you will, to the relationship and committed to the ideology that was being

put forward by the perpetrator, which is an interesting thing that

most people don't think about. They see somebody who's abusive. They think they're just evil and

hurting their loved one, yet they don't consider that there may be something underneath that

that's keeping the person there beyond their ability to see clear of

what's going on to them. And then we look at groups. You know, we look at the kind of group I was

...