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I think of him as pure evil. I think that if there is a devil, then he's probably the devil or the devil's son.

I like... I hadn't dreamed about this moment. I would actually stab and kill him.

But then I never knew what happened.

But when they were married, I think it was 14 years. 13 or 14 years. Cindy came to me and she said,

I'm not happily married. You were right. I should have waited longer. She said that he's not the type of person I want to be married to.

And I said, what? You know, because I thought they got along pretty well. He was fun to be with. And she said, he's very, very possessive.

He won't even let me wear a bikini at the beach. And I said, oh really? I didn't even know that.

And all this time we were having great times with, you know, picnics and over at our house at Christmas time and Thanksgiving.

And we just had a great family unit. And she named several things that I didn't even know what was happening.

She said, I can't even go out in the evening, go shopping or anything, because you're afraid a guy will pick me up or something.

Hi, everyone. And welcome to Real Crime Profile. I'm Laura Richards, live from London, Criminal Behavioral Analyst, Founder and Director of Paladin National Stalking Advocacy Service. And with me, live from LA is...

Lisa Zambetti, I'm the casting director for Criminal Minds. We're Jim Clemente's my colleague. He's not with us today, because we really wanted to talk to Laura to get her input on the dirty John episodes that she wasn't able to chime in.

We did two episodes with Christopher Gawford, the author and reporter on dirty John. And Laura was only with us for part one. So as you will, as you know, when you hear part two, I was channeling her so hard and wishing she was there.

So now we thought we would just do an epilogue and kind of tear it apart. But before we do that, Laura, tell me.

Tell me about the picture I saw of you today.

I mean, there's been a few posted today. It's been incredibly busy. And, you know, I've got to say it's now, you know, in the evening. And after my busy day, I just really wanted to talk about dirty John and some of the analysis on it. And it's wholly relevant to what I was doing today.

So my day was quite insane. I started with an early session delivering a masterclass on coercive control. The subject we're going to talk about and risk and the law and homicide prevention. And I was working with one of my colleagues, one of my associate trainers, Shona Dylan.

And we use lots of different case studies. And that's the best way that people learn. But one of the cases, Lisa, you'll be interested to know was Nicole and Ron.

Where we actually I played to them the 911 because obviously this is a problem across the world. It's not just located in one country. And we got them to analyze and assess Nicole was letter that you and I discussed the letter that was submitted in the civil case that just showed so many aspects of coercive controlling behavior.

And Laura, what episode is that that do you always remember the episodes better than I do? Do you remember?

Well, I don't remember the detail of it, but you can go to all of our podcasts because it was kind of sequential that we went through it. So I think you need to listen to all of them. It was in, you know, some of our first ones that we did after making a murderer.

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