This is 99% Invisible. I'm Roman Mars. So this is a little bonus episode of 99% Invisible.

And one of the big things we did this year was we released a brand new show inside of a show

created and hosted and conceived and reported by Avery Trollman who is here with me in the studio.

Yes. And what I want to talk to you about is this was a phenomenon. It was called the

4th Best Podcast of the Year according to the New Yorker. And so I wanted to talk to you a little

bit about the making of it and what you learned in the process of it both in terms of the production

of it as a show is a piece of entertainment and information but also like personally how it

affected your view of clothing your view of style. Well that's what I think. So first what was it

like to have the show within a show and how did it feel to be out there as the host? What was that

like? Oh it's so scary. I don't know. You do it. It's really scary to have your voice out there

especially in this realm where I didn't know anything about it before. And yeah there was just so

much to synthesize in this series. I've been working on it for so long. I learned so much and it

really changed the way I dress and the way I shop entirely. Oh that's amazing. So what do you

mean by that? The funny thing is I think going into this series I was like I am a close person.

I am a person who loves clothes and then after reporting the series I am a person who hates clothes

and I am a person. No no no no I'm a person who loves style and I love fashion. Yeah but clothes

are tricky. Okay so explain the nuance here that you're speaking of. So as we learned in episode

number five of articles of interest about denim the process of making clothes. Right. Any kind of

clothes is really wasteful. It's pretty shocking. And we live in a world where it is so easy to just buy

new clothes and that's what I used to do all the time. Not even thinking about it. I think a lot of

people who don't consider themselves big shoppers just you know here and there occasionally just

impulsively buy things from the internet. Sure. From a store and maybe sometimes it fits and

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