Escalation is presented by Delete Me, the industry leader in personal data removal.

Delete Me is trusted by 20% of the Fortune 500 and by federal state and county courts across the United States.

For more information on Delete Me and its services for individuals and businesses, go to

join DeleteMe.com slash Escalation.

Hey, Escalation listeners, Max Johnston here, one of the executive producers of the podcast.

Today's bonus episode features our conversation with Professor John Meersheimer.

Mearsheimer is an American political scientist and professor at the University of Chicago,

and he's been researching and writing about the United States, Russia, and Ukraine for decades.

Meersheimer is somewhat of a controversial figure for some of his views on the Russian invasion

of Ukraine and the relationship between Ukraine, NATO, and the United States.

Our conversation with him was at times tense and difficult, but it was ultimately respectful and very interesting.

Here it is.

John, I would love to start in 2008 with the Bucharest Summit.

And I'm curious your thoughts on how you see that moment in the context of the broader relationship between Ukraine and Russia and also the U.S.

I think that decision to bring Ukraine into NATO at the Bucharest summit in April 2008 was one of the most foolish decisions that the United States has made in its history.

I think the consequences of that decision up to now have been disastrous, especially for Ukraine,

and the consequences, the negative consequences of that decision will reverberate in Europe

and around the world for many decades to come.

Would you mind spinning that out a bit?

Take us back to the moment, the options on the table and why you think the worst one perhaps was chosen and what the

domino effect of that choice was. Well, there were two choices in April 2008. One was not to

bring Ukraine into NATO, to not go down that road. And that, of course, was the option that Angela Merkel

...