Produced by the I-Lab at WBUR Boston.

He was one of the leading psychiatrist in the whole world.

Like deprivation, shock treatment, hallucinogenic drugs, and she lost her soul.

She was a pacifist and she was disgusted and mortified that she'd been used as a guinea pig

to create human weapons of war.

You know, he did have the attitude that to make an omelet you have to crack a few cakes.

And nobody's been accountable for it.

Accountability is like a ghost.

This past spring, Endless Thread released a five-part series called Madness.

The secret mission for mind control and the people who paid the price.

Maybe you remember it?

It was about a powerful doctor who conducted disturbing CIA-funded mind control experiments

on his patients at a prestigious psychiatric hospital in Montreal.

If you haven't heard Madness yet, go back and listen.

Funny story.

There were some other people who were interested in telling this story.

They're called the CBC, aka the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

And they made a very similar show called Brainwashed, which is great.

It's a new series.

It also explores the history of CIA-funded mind control experiments.

And today, we're bringing you a conversation that Ben and I had with the host of Brainwashed, Michelle Shefford.

We were curious to compare notes with another reporter who'd gone deep into this story

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