Welcome back to the podcast, Brib, Swindler, Steel. I'm Alexandra Ragi. And for today's podcast, we're listening in on a conversation with Bill Browder at the London Trace Forum earlier this month.

Here's Bill now, talking about his most recent book,

Freezing Order, and his work on the Global Magnitsky Act. We want to talk about your

book, Freezing Order. This follows on red notice. Which one did you like better?

Which one did you like better? I think this one. Yeah, this one is more down your

alley. They're both fantastic, but it feels like you hit your stride in the second one.

It's interesting because it depends on who you talk to.

If you talk to the people who work in finance, they would love my first book more because

it's got this like rags to riches story at the beginning about how I established myself in Russia. But if you work in the

world of compliance, anti-corruption, then this is definitely your book because this is all about

how we went about finding the money that Sorgay Magnitsky, my lawyer, was killed over.

That's exactly where we need to go from here. I think the story is widely known, but maybe

not well-known. So can you just start by it?

It's a very long story, but can you give us just the overview of your story in Sergei's?

I imagine a lot of you know me or know of me, but if you don't, just for the benefit of those.

I come from an unusual American family.

My grandfather was the general secretary of the American Communist Party between

1932 and 1945. And so when I was going through my teenage rebellion, I decided to put on a suit

in time, become a capitalist that really upset my family very much. I went to Stanford Business

School and I graduated in

1989, which was the year the Berlin Wall came down. And I thought if my grandfather was the

biggest communist in America and the Berlin Wall has just come down, I'm going to try to become

...