Welcome to Think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and Culture, a podcast from Talbot School

of Theology at Biola University. I'm your host Scott Ray, Dean of Faculty and Professor

of Christian Ethics. And I'm your co-host Sean McDowell Professor of Christian. of Nancy, who is a professor of sociology at Baylor University, about his book Beyond Racial Division,

a unifying alternative to color blindness and anti-racism.

We had a great conversation in part one on this last week.

George really appreciate your transparency

and talking about your own journey

and some of the things that frustrate you

and some of the things that you've learned

in these conversations about racial issues that you've had.

So thanks again for joining us for part two.

Thanks for having me.

Now where we left it last time is that obviously you are a strong advocate as a starting place for

collaborative conversations, active listening, perspective taking on matters of racial issues.

But what's the next step after these conversations that

actually leads to solving problems in breaking this destructive cycle that

you described in part one? Sure. So the definition of clapric conversations is that they're

goal oriented conversations. So we're not just talking to shoot the breeze or

even learn about each other. We're talking because we have a goal oriented. And the goal, ideally, is to deal with some racialized issue.

What are we going to do about teaching of race in our schools? What are we going to do about teaching of race in our schools?

What are we going to do about police community relations?

What are going to do about worship styles in our church?

...