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at Hope Plumbing today. Nate Atkins joins us on the program from the Indianapolis Star.

He has a very interesting article about Germain O'Neill that, Nate, I'm going to begin with this.

We had had Jermaine on last week just before the All-Star game.

And you had a little differing conversation than we did, although some of it was the same,

in particular the brawl.

I just found Jermaine O'Neill, not that he never was to begin with, but I think it was an opportunity

or we are undergoing an opportunity for fans of the

Indiana Pacers to realize that Germain O'Neill, I think, is a far more mature.

I'm not going to say intelligent because there was no reason for us to think he wasn't

intelligent.

But a mature and at this point, I think, almost sentimental person than we saw as a player.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah, I think that's absolutely true.

You know, it's easy to think back on his career and especially the topic that dominated that conversation with the brawl

and just kind of see him in that moment and see him for a lot of the intensity he had on the

court and to assume that that that leads you know and how young he came into the NBA right at 17 years

...