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The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Best of: Frances Lee on why bipartisanship is irrational

The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Vox Media Podcast Network

Politics, News, News Commentary, Philosophy, Society & Culture

4.511.1K Ratings

🗓️ 3 December 2020

⏱️ 59 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

There are few conversations I’ve had on this show that are quite as relevant to our current political moment as this one with Princeton political scientist Frances Lee. Joe Biden will occupy the White House come January, but pending the results of two runoff Senate elections in Georgia, Democrats either won’t control the Senate at all or will face a 50-50 split. In either case, an important question looms large over the incoming administration: Will Republican senators negotiate with Biden in good faith? Lee’s work is an indispensable framework for thinking about that inquiry. In her most recent book, Insecure Majorities: Congress and the Perpetual Campaign, Lee makes a point that sounds strange when you hear it but changes everything once you understand it. For most of American history, American politics has been under one-party rule. For decades, that party was the Republican Party. Then, for decades more, it was the Democratic Party. It’s only in the past few decades that control of Congress began flipping back and forth every few years, that presidential elections became routinely decided by a few percentage points, that both parties are always this close to gaining or losing the majority. That kind of close competition, Lee writes, makes the daily compromises of bipartisan governance literally irrational. "Confrontation fits our strategy,” Dick Cheney once said. "Polarization often has very beneficial results. If everything is handled through compromise and conciliation, if there are no real issues dividing us from the Democrats, why should the country change and make us the majority?” Why indeed? This is a conversation about that question, about how the system we have incentivizes a politics of confrontation we don’t seem to want and makes steady, stable governance a thing of the past. . Book Recommendations: The Imprint of Congress by David R. Mayhew Fear Itself: The New Deal and the Origins of Our Time by Ira Katznelson Congress's Constitution: Legislative Authority and the Separation of Powers by Josh Chafetz Credits: Producer/Audio engineer - Jeff Geld Researcher - Roge Karma Please consider making a contribution to Vox to support this show: bit.ly/givepodcasts Your support will help us keep having ambitious conversations about big ideas. New to the show? Want to check out Ezra’s favorite episodes? Check out the Ezra Klein Show beginner’s guide (http://bit.ly/EKSbeginhere) Want to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

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apply C-Cars.Suskey.co.uk.

0:32.1

If an issue comes to be seen as associated with a president, such that that president's

0:38.6

performance in office is benchmarked against their ability to resolve that issue, then that

0:44.7

sets off that political incentive on the opposing party, which is we can't give the president

0:49.0

a win.

1:02.0

Hello and welcome to the Ezra Klan Show, I'm the Vox Media, podcast network.

1:05.9

So through December we're going to be doing a mix of new shows and a couple best of's,

1:10.8

and the best of's are going to be either shows that I really really love and want to be

1:14.6

able to put back out into the world and into the feed.

1:17.2

Or there are going to be shows that I think have a particular resonance to what is happening

1:21.1

right now.

1:22.1

So this is the best of show, please enjoy.

1:26.4

My guest today is someone I really wanted to have on around the dawn of a new congress

1:30.4

because her work has influenced me tremendously in how I think about divided government in

1:36.2

particular, but Congress and its relationship with the presidency in general is, Francisly,

...

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