Hey, folks, you're listening to The Ben Shapiro Show. So I had the opportunity to speak with Matt Frad. Matt, of course, is the host of a podcast called Pints with Aquinas. He had a big debate with Dennis Prager over pornography, how sinful it is, how evil it is and all the rest. So he and I decided to have a chat about it. It's really fascinating stuff. Give it a listen. Joining me on the line is Matt Frad. He's creator and a host of Pints with Aquinas. It's a great podcast. He's the author of several books, including The Porn Myth, a non-religious response to pro-porn arguments. Matt, thanks so much for joining the show. Great to talk to you. Thanks for inviting me, Ben. So obviously, you've had this very well-watched debate with Dennis Prager over pornography, and then I sort of evaluated it, and then you evaluated my evaluation of the debate. I wanted to have you on to sort of discuss what sort of the Jewish and Catholic takes and sort of what the general moral takes should be on pornography because I have a feeling that you and I actually don't disagree.

I think pretty much on anything.

I think that the question here is one of terminology.

It seems like one of the sort of terminological debate is over the word lust and what the definition of the word lust is, is what it comes down to. So, you know, I think that

to recap what the debate was, why don't you start with that? What was the actual debate between

you and Dennis for those who didn't actually watch it? Dennis made the claim that if a husband

watches pornography to avoid adultery, that it's not awful.

And I'm of the opinion that pornography is an intrinsically evil thing to consume and that it's always wrong.

And so we had a lovely back and forth on my show.

And yeah, you're right.

There was a lot of terminology that we were getting hung up on.

So that's that. I think if somebody wants to say that pornography, yeah, you go.

Yeah, so I mean, all I was going to say is, I agree with you. I mean, pornography is an evil.

The making of pornography is evil. The consumption of pornography is evil.

I mean, I literally wrote a book in 2005 when I believe I was 21 years old called Porn Generation about the evils of pornography in which I detailed its mainstreaming into nearly

every area of society. And I was called a prude at the time. And it turns out that if you go

back and read the book now, it reads rather well in terms of being prophetic about how everything

was going to be pornified across American society. I think that it seemed to me that

a lot of the debate was breaking down over some failures to clearly define terms. I'm not going to

blame you or blame Dennis, but I want to get your definition of the terms. So I think that we have to sort of separate the debate into two areas. One is action in the in the boudoir and the other is thought, right? This is something that Dennis has talked about a lot, is that in Judaism, there's a lot more focus on action than there is on thought. I think he was misdefining action. Viewing pornography is not just a thought. That's an actual action. Participating in the making of pornography is actually an action, not just a thought. But Dennis's

general principle, which is that Judaism cares far less about what's in your head than, you know,

sort of how you act. Generally, that's true, although there are certainly commandments that go to

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