This episode is brought to you by Pepsi Max. Christmas is great, but there's loads of ways to make it better.

Like sneaking some chili into the gravy for some extra oint, or building a playlist that will even get your

none up on the table or just cracking open an ice cold Pepsi Max.

Christmas.

Better with Pepsi Max. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry I'm Francis Foster I'm

Constantine Kissin and this is a show for you if you're bored of people arguing

on the internet over subjects they know nothing about.

At trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts.

We ask the experts.

Our terrific guest this week is a writer and the author of the tribe.

Ben Kobley, welcome to Trigonometry.

Thank you very much.

It's so great to have you here.

Before we get into the interview and we talk about the book itself and some of your thoughts,

tell us a little bit about how you are, where you are are and how you've come to be sitting in

this chair. Well yes it's been quite a long and strange journey in a way. I mean maybe

roughly about 10 years ago I sort of stepped out to an extent of you know a normal sort of career

when I was a business to business journalist and you know I wanted to I just had a niche I wanted to scratch really and I

ended up going part-time in the work and then exploring my own interests so

you know reading a lot of philosophy, literature, other stuff.

And at around about the same time I also thought, I mean I'd spent all my years basically since university sitting in pubs

moaning about politics and nothing better and actually not really doing anything. So I've never done that.

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