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I first stumbled upon the work of my guest today near I.L. When he came out with his book

about five years ago called a hook. Hooked was this deep dive into deconstructing how

some of the biggest tech companies and app developers developed their platforms, their apps,

their tools, their programs to make them sort of irresistible. Like you start playing

them and you kind of can't stop and then you keep going back over and over and over and

over again. And in that book, he laid out sort of a four step process that all of these

companies already know about. But as a reader, you could actually see what was happening

and it kind of armed you to understand what was going on and then to make different choices

and to understand how to maybe step out of the slipstream of those devices and technologies

and programs. He has a new book out now called Indistractable, which in my mind is almost like

...