From away to garden.com and Robinhood Radio.com, this is Away to Garden with Margaret Roach. You're a weekly invitation to dig in and grow. Most of us have something to hide in our gardens that is some view of something we'd like to erase. It could be the telephone pole across the street that we can see from certain spots or The neighbors drive way or even something within our own property.

The trash bins or who knows what. Today's guest Basil Camus has a suggestion and an expensive quick to develop privacy screen started from a diverse mix of native saplings, sort of a hack of the concept of planting a pocket forest which he'll'll explain to. So more in a moment, but first, these messages. Underwriting support for a way to garden provided by Colorblends, wholesale flower bulbs, a third-generation bulb company offering top-sized flower bulbs directly to landscape professionals and ambitious residential gardeners on the web, Colorblends.com. by High Moeng Seeds, Walker Vermont, Professional Quality Vegetable, Flower... plant. That's okay. Whiteflower Farm offering a wide range of carefully selected and expertly grown garden plants. On the web, whiteflowerfarm.com. Pazel Camu is co-founder of Leif and Lim, Tree Care Company in Rallie, North Carolina, an author of the book from Waste Land to Wunder, easy ways we can help heal Earth in the sub-urban landscape. Leif and Lim is a very different kind of tree service that doesn't do tree takedowns and instead focuses on tree care through all phases of a tree's life and in innovative ways to use them in our landscapes to enhance biodiversity. He's also founder of a nonprofit project Pando, which propagates and distributes some 10,000 native tree saplings annually from wild collected seed, most going to nonprofits and ecological restoration efforts. So welcome back to the program. How are you? I am doing great. Thanks so much for having me. Always a pleasure to be here. Well, this conversation is inspired by something that's explored more deeply in your book from Wasteland to Wunder. And we should tell people, and we'll remind them at the end as well, and I'll give links with the transcript of the show over on AwayToGarden.com. The people can download a digital copy of your book. I believe it's free of charge or they can for basically your cost, they can order a physical copy, yes. So we'll give all that info. Yeah, and there's going to be more information on this subject, but let's just kind of get started on the basics that we can cram into a lot of time here. But it cracked me up that on your leaf and limb website, you have a page headlined hedging your bets. So maybe we should quickly tell everyone what a pocket force is because I think this idea of your version of a privacy screen is adapted from kind of a pocket forest world, yes? Right, exactly. It's essentially the whole idea is planting lots of trees and shrubs in the case of a pocket forest or just shrubs in the case of these privacy thickets. And the The ideas you work with saplings, they're very easy to plant, they're very cheap. You can get excellent native diversity when you're working with these young bear root saplings, typically going to be bear root. You could do like quartzide, I suppose, or tublings. You know, pylons and nursery has tublings, which I love. But the idea is just they're small and they're inexpensive and you could plant 20, 30, 40 an hour. So when you start comparing that against a normal planting approach, you know, maybe I have a front yard, it's 500 square feet. I could plant one large oak. Yes, I'd have that instant large tree in the front yard, but there's all kinds of issues that come from that. Root-bound plants and containers and establishment periods, we could talk a lot about that, but I'll just skip it and say, or you could spend the same amount of money in time and plant a whole bunch of native trees and shrubs. That's more or less the pocket for us. From that, we've built out this privacy-ficket idea, do the same thing. Plant lots of little saplings, but limit them to shrubs. Things that only grow maybe 20 feet. So things that could then be pruned as well, I assume, yes? Yeah, they have a lot of ability to be shaped and formed. And going full circle to where you open the hedging your bets idea. This is sort of the foundation for how we got here with privacy rows. We often find that their monocultures, meaning it's just one species and it's planted in a row. Often these species are not native, sometimes they are, but any time you're planting with one kind of species in a row, if something happens to that species, maybe there's a new pest in the area where it's a drowdy summer and chances are all of the trees will be affected. Whereas if you plant a variety of species, then you can have some resilience built in. Maybe one species doesn't make it, but if you're using, I don't know, 20 different shrub species, if one or two don't make it, you still have plenty of backups. Right. I think people who learn a lot of our historic areas in the Southeast or Mid-Atlantic and whatever, I think this was a lesson learned the hard way with some historic boxwood hedging and so forth. right? Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Rightging and so forth, right? Right. Right. Now there are these diseases and, oh my goodness, you know, it can't withstand them and you're losing not a little bit of your, your sort of architecture of your landscape, but all of it. Right. Yeah. The call. It is. And we get, the call we get so frequently is, oh, my row of Arbor Videy have died or here we have a lot of Leeland Cypresses so It's a common thing with these privacy rows So then you get to this next junction, which is okay. You've convinced me. I want to use lots of species Does that mean I'm gonna have to spend a bunch more money on? plants and you could go that route if you wanted to buy all large plants and go through all of that time you could but because we deal with real world constraints at least in them our clients never have more time or more money We've had to find ways through that and this using saplings is a really great way through that because Again, you don't spend really more time or more money You get the benefit of having many different species and then what we found which is pretty remarkable when you plant lots of these native saplings together it is truly a rising tide lifts all boats situation they just explode in growth and it makes sense plants growing together are supporting and helping and cooperating.

All kinds of interesting research coming out about how micro-rhygesal fungi facilitates nutrient transportation across species and plants taking care of each other. There's a lot of cooperation happening within the world of plants and nowhere is it more evident than watching one of these privacy thickets grow up? So how, so when I'm doing this, how close am I planting and how, like, how deep a bed so to speak, you know, I mean, if I were to make a hedge of, you know, some of the things you just mentioned, or the box with that I just mentioned, you know, we kind of have an idea because we know we could could look up the ultimate width and so forth of that plant at maturity or something. But what kind of a space should I a lot and how thick are my planting? Great questions. General high level overview of how this process works. Generally recommend at least 8 to 10 feet of width. And you can go as long as you want. So a classic depth by width might be, say, 50 feet long by 8 feet wide. Within that bed, we recommend laying down cardboard and a thick layer of arborist wood chips. Plus some leaf compost if you have it, you don't have to have it. We recommend putting that that down a month or two maybe three in advance so it can get nice and And rotting and suppress all that vegetation growing underneath then come back during the planting season and Start putting the saplings in the ground. We recommend spacing them out every two to three feet and don't be don't plan it It should be be random. Yes, distribute different species evenly around your let's say you're using say 10 different species. Roughly distribute them so that they are spreading across the full length but don't try to perfectly plot where every sapling will go. There should be some randomness to it. It's how nature works. I don't think it hurts to

plan it out, but I think randomness actually adds some resilience. And then after you put those trees in the ground, we recommend marking them. We used to use landscape flags. Now we're actually using four-foot orange colored driveway markers. They're more visible, more durable, and it can be reused time and time again. And the reason you want those is because you will need to know what you planted versus what you did not plant during the... Yeah, that's a... Oh boy, I know about that. If you're a seasoned plant expert, you don't need those markers because you know what you did and didn't plant. Most people are going to have a tough time discerning what they planted versus the seeds that floated in on the sky and have started taking roots. Using the markers makes it super easy. It's basically if it's not got a marker, pull it out. Right. Because like I hear those squirrels and the blue jays would be planting like eight cards and stuff. And I'd have every other plant would be to be you know. Exactly. Yeah. So this takes the thinking out of it. It takes the plant ID out of it. For many people, plant ID is the big challenge. And especially like, I don't know, I know you know this. The identification on a young plant versus a more mature plant, quite challenging. Sure. just takes that whole bit out of it. Now all you need to do is for the next two, maybe three growing seasons, make sure no other roots or invasive plant, excuse me, so make sure no other trees or shrubs or invasive plants take hold in that space. And then after about two or three growing seasons, these privacy thickets are typically gonna be in the range of 10 to 15 feet tall. Wow. Yeah, it's really fast. And they will close the sunlight down to the ground. Not much will be able to take root after that. Uh-huh. I think of this in a way, a term that I used to use with a friend Kendruzz, we wrote a book a million years ago about, what's called the natural habitat garden, like 30 years ago. And we used the term bio-headge. And I think of these as like the new, the modern version of bio-headge. And by that, I just meant when I don't make a hedge of one species, but I mix a lot of woody plants together and let them all, including vines in some cases, I used to also add vines, not just shrubs and trees, and let them kind of mingle and make it, yeah, you know, for edge habitat, right, mimicking edge habitat in nature. And yeah, so I think of these as kind of like baby bio hedges, you know, spouting out from the satellites. Yeah. Yeah. And that edge habitat is so important. When you go down the list of disappearing ecosystems, you see all the usual suspects. I mean, like you could just name it basically. But one of the ones that just doesn't make the headlines as much as our thickets in general, it's really a crucial space between field and forest where lots of birds and insects are overwintering or they're laying young. There's just an important ecosystem. And I gotta say on that note, my favorite part about these spaces that we're describing is you can see all the bird life. With trees off in that bird life is so high, you can't see it as well. But these are short enough that you get a really great view on all the birds and insects that are enjoying the space and it's just remarkable. Are there some favorite plants that you've been using? And I mean, I know you're in Raleigh and your clients are in that general vicinity and so forth and people would have to adapt ideas with parallel species for their region. But are there some plants that you've been especially thrilled with

their performance in these biohedges?

I mean, in these, I'm sure I'm calling them biohedges already. Oh, that's great. Yeah, there's a, okay, yeah, we have a lot of go-to's. I think some of the ones you'd expect to do really well and usually do, American Beauty very button bushed as well. Silky dogwood and spice bush, nine bark. We love some of the Aronia and there's a few other, like Possimhal does pretty well here. I don't know if that you'd have that where you are. Do you know what the genus of Possimhal is? Yeah. Possimhal is Viburnum Nudum. Okay, sure. Okay. Yeah, sorry.

How many names are there? No, no, it's fine. It's just it's not something that you know, I didn't didn't ring about with me right away. So good. Oh yeah, yeah. Sure. Older does really well. Allness, Sarah, Sarah Lutah, I believe. Those are some of the ones that come to mind as just doing I'll sum do too well. We found that Elverberry is almost just too much. We don't use that anymore.

It is. I'll some do too well. We found that Elverberry is almost just too much. Yeah. We don't use that anymore. It is. I love to have it. I think it's a must on the property. If you're into birds and insects and it's a wonderful, a wonderful plant, the native Elverberry. It's just I think you have to give it its own big area to romp in because it's kind of a thug, a little bit of a thug. But when it comes into flower, you could stand under that and just listen to the sounds of so many creatures buzzing in there and having being happy. And you know, it's amazing. I do love the plant. It's just a bit aggressive. Yeah, yeah. The. The I'll add two more layers to this that are worth noting. One maintenance requirements are virtually nil. You can do pruning if you want to. And because there's so many plants, you can be as rough as you want. If you want to just push it back and make a straight line, shouldn't be a problem. I am a little more selective in my pruning. I like to keep natural form. and I let it spread a little bit, but it's very malleable. Mainless requirements are quite low.

You don't even have to pruning. I like to keep natural form and I let it spread a little bit, but it's very malleable. Mainness requirements are quite low. You don't even have to prune. One other layer I want to add is most of your listeners are experts in many of these topics. But what I think one of the valuable parts of this system is it's a great way to get people into this work who don't care about native plants. We have found that we might get a call from a prospective client and they're like, hey, I want a rule of Arbor Videy. It's a great entry point to, oh, well, what if you could choose something else that has more resilience and isn't going to cost anymore? They're like, yeah, sounds great. Then next thing, they've got this hedge of native plants bursting with birds and pollinators and they're getting pulled into this world of native plants So it's kind of a good Trojan horse. I think for people who are not into this kind of stuff You you mentioned the saplings you mentioned one nursery at one point earlier Um, are these becoming these saplings becoming easier to find than they may be one sort because you know obviously a lot of nurseries like to sell a larger plant. So where does one go shopping for this or whatever? Are male or nurseries doing this? Yeah, there are increasingly more. So most states will have a program through the state for service that will offer these. Those are fantastic. I do really love pylons' nursery. They grow native plants and they will... their prices are reasonable, they're two bling's. If they don't have the native plant you want, you can actually send them seeds. They'll grow the plants for you at the same price. Oh, goodness. Yeah, they're great. And then locally here in North Carolina, we have some fantastic options. I'm not going to list them because I don't think they'd be relevant to many of your listeners. But if you think meta level, we are seeing a rise in native plant availability and more so at the sapling level than at the containerized and B&B level. That's been my anecdotal observations. Yeah, and one thing I was throwing on this subject of sourcing is that connecting to your native plant society, most of the state native plant society websites have a resource or source kind of tab in their navigation or whatever, you know, so finding your Marylander, your Connecticut or your whatever native plant society, and I can give a link with transcript of the show again on how to find your your state one a lot of them do have information on plant sales and plant nurseries in that state for that states plants, you know, so I'll give info on that as well. Yeah, that's a great point also local garden Exactly. Plant sales and swaps and all kinds of things.

Yeah.

University extensions, agents will often

have some good recommendations. And don't forget Reddit. Reddit's got a really big growing community of Native New Zealand. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Yeah, there's a huge subreddit. It's native. It's the native plant subreddit. There's a, there's like, I don't know, offhand,

I want to say about 150,000 users in that.

And that, so yeah, lots of stuff online.

And I think you're right. Native plants societies are probably one of the best places to start. Yeah so do you tend to when you try to pick your palette of plants but going back to sort of some of the ones that you recommend recommend. Do you always put 10 different kinds or whatever or do you sometimes just do three or five? Tell us a little bit more about that because I mean like for instance I love birds and I love fruiting plants and I have a lot of big big big big big groups of winter very hollies and erroneous and things like that, and different viburnums

and things like that.

Have you ever done ones that are just really feature sort of the flowers followed by the fruit kind of thing? Have you ever done any of those sort of more thematic so to speak or? Yes, definitely. Our themes are usually sort of more in ecological function terms. Maybe like, you know, client needs just fast growing for maximum hill stabilization or something. The short answer is you, this is like making a salad. There's no right or wrong way to do it. It may be a better salad or a worse salad, but it's probably still gonna be a salad. The, that's like the broad version. I also know a lot of people don't like broad answers like that. So I'll give you a different answer, which is if you wanted to get particular, I think you should aim for more than, say, 10 or 15 species to get that resilience. I don't think it has to be, but I personally, I actually prefer over 20. But we're a little bit unique here in that we are able to grow our own We we use Airpruning beds and we collect our own seeds. This is in addition to the nonprofit which does the same But we for our internal purposes we also do this so we are able to grow almost whatever we want It's very fortunate. I think most people are a little bit They're gonna be at the mercy of the nurseries

availability.

So don't let great be the enemy of good.

If you can only get five native species, fine.

It's better than one.

What if you want, even in winter, for there

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