Barry Loewer and Eddy Chen: Do the Laws of Physics Actually Exist?

Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal

Curt Jaimungal

Physics, Philosophy, Society & Culture, Science

4.6 • 606 Ratings

🗓️ 16 June 2025

⏱️ 130 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Barry Loewer and Eddy Chen debate whether the laws of physics are mind-independent or human-made, spanning metaphysics, causation, free will, and quantum mechanics.0:00 The Nature of Physical Reality42:28 The Circularity of Scientific Understanding1:05:44 Reality Explored1:08:28 Describing Human Experience1:10:10 The Role of Science1:10:58 Understanding Motion and Laws1:12:19 The Nature of Laws1:14:55 Possible Worlds in Philosophy1:18:05 Configuration Space Debate1:21:10 Quantum Mechanics and Reality1:22:50 Metaphysical Necessity1:27:13 The Nature of Free Will1:30:14 Bridging Philosophy and Science1:32:05 Constraints and Freedom1:34:57 Philosophical Disputes1:39:08 The Journey of Learning2:05:16 Teaching and Learning Dynamics2:07:23 Closing ReflectionsSPONSORS:- I personally subscribe to The Economist. TOE listeners get 35% off the annual subscription. No other podcast has this! https://economist.com/TOERESOURCES:- Barry’s published papers: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=n_RTOwO00oEC&hl=en- Eddy’s published papers: https://arxiv.org/a/chen_e_1.html- Neil Turok on TOE: https://youtu.be/ZUp9x44N3uE- Greg Chaitin on TOE: https://youtu.be/zMPnrNL3zsE- Leonard Susskind on TOE: https://youtu.be/2p_Hlm6aCok- Emily Adlam on TOE: https://youtu.be/6I2OhmVWLMs- Laws of Nature and Chances (book): https://www.amazon.com/Laws-Nature-Chances-Breathes-Equations/dp/0198907699- Laws of Physics (book): https://www.amazon.com/Laws-Physics-Elements-Philosophy/dp/100901272X- On the Plurality of Worlds (book): https://www.amazon.com/Plurality-Worlds-David-K-Lewis/dp/0631224262- Tim Maudlin on TOE: https://youtu.be/fU1bs5o3nss- Tim Maudlin and Tim Palmer on TOE: https://youtu.be/883R3JlZHXE- How Physics Makes Us Free (book): https://www.amazon.com/How-Physics-Makes-Us-Free/dp/0190269448- From Time Asymmetry to Quantum Entanglement (paper): https://arxiv.org/pdf/2006.05029- Jacob Barandes on TOE: https://youtu.be/7oWip00iXbo- Realism with a Human Face (book): https://www.amazon.com/Realism-Human-Face-Hilary-Putnam/dp/0674749456- Causation and Laws of Nature in Early Modern Philosophy (book): https://www.amazon.com/Causation-Nature-Early-Modern-Philosophy/dp/0199664684/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0- The Maniac (book): https://www.amazon.com/MANIAC-Benjamin-Labatut/dp/0593654471- When We Cease to Understand the World (book): https://www.amazon.com/When-We-Cease-Understand-World/dp/1681375664- Eddy’s paper on time and nature: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2109.09226- Join My New Substack (Personal Writings): https://curtjaimungal.substack.com- Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e- Become a YouTube Member (Early Access Videos): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdWIQh9DGG6uhJk8eyIFl1w/join- Support me on Patreon: https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal- Support me on Crypto: https://commerce.coinbase.com/checkout/de803625-87d3-4300-ab6d-85d4258834a9- Support me on PayPal: https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=XUBHNMFXUX5S4- Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt- Discord Invite: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal features long-form, technically detailed interviews with leading researchers in physics, mathematics, consciousness, and philosophy, exploring topics at the level of active research. For academics, graduate students, and anyone seeking depth beyond popular science. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	We have to acknowledge that we don't fully access the physical reality.
0:03.1	He's a metaphor that have gone crazy.
0:05.3	This seems like a very historical debate.
0:07.6	Nature cannot violate the laws of God.
0:09.8	Why not?
0:13.6	The laws of physics as something that constrains or even causes the world around us
0:18.4	is as fundamental a concept as anything. That's what I investigate
0:21.9	on this channel. However, do laws like this even exist in this manner? Do what we call the
0:27.8	quote laws of physics actually compel reality? Or do they describe patterns that we observe?
0:34.5	Professor Barry Lauer of Rutgers University champions the Humean view,
0:38.6	that laws are sophisticated summaries, not these primitive governing forces. Professor Eddie Chen
0:44.0	of UC San Diego defends the opposing position through minimal primitivism. That is, that laws are
0:49.8	fundamental metaphysical facts that genuinely constrain physical possibilities.
0:54.6	A special thank you to Barry as he had just come off of a 12-hour flight.
0:59.1	You'll notice the playful camaraderie between these two,
1:02.0	and that's because Barry, along with David Albert, were Eddie Chen's PhD supervisors.
1:06.7	Stick around until the end as we get to questions of free will
1:09.8	and ultimately whether the mathematical structures physicists discover reflect mind-independent features of nature or are projections of human pattern seeking onto brute facts.
1:21.3	To me, the stakes extend beyond academic philosophy.
1:25.6	It's about how we understand the laws that shape our conception
1:28.1	of science, causation, and you, yes you, your place in the universe. I'd like to talk about a
1:36.9	phrase that we use often, and it's so often that it's become second nature to us all,
	...

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