This is an I-Heart podcast.

Hi, everyone. I'm Katie Couric, and this is next question.

Michael McFall has spent his career studying what makes democracies rise and how they fall.

As many of you know, he's a former U.S. ambassador to Russia and the author of a new book called Autocrats versus Democrats, China, Russia, America, and the new global disorder.

Mike says that under Trump, America's retreat from global leadership has opened the door for autocrats like Putin and Xi to flex their muscles and for democracy everywhere to lose ground.

He also argues the real struggle isn't just in other countries. It's here at home.

He believes Trump has led us to a place of legitimately debating whether our leaders still

have to play by democratic rules or if we're willing to let them act,

yes, like autocrats. Mike is my go-to guy for all things Russia and Ukraine, but believe me,

he understands what's happening in the entire world better than just about anyone I know.

So here's my conversation with Mike McFall.

Michael McFaul's so good to see you in person for a change.

I can't believe it. Welcome to New York. Not looking at my phone on a substack or Instagram. Exactly. Thank you so much for coming in. You look much better in person, by the way. You look great on T. You look great on Instagram, but it's fun to be here with y'all.

Thank you. Thank you. So, wow, you've written a light little book called Autocrats versus Democrats,

China, Russia, America, and the new global disorder. Tell me what you wanted to do when you set out to write this book, Mike.

Well, honestly, it took me years to write.

I do have a day job.

I'm a professor at Stanford, and I run a big institute there, so I didn't have hours

and hours to work on it.

But it changed over time.

The original motivation was we had a debate several years ago amongst foreign policy types about

whether we've entered a new Cold War with China and its sidekick Russia. And I wanted,

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