Sabotage, hired goons and a landfill in Utah.

How Steve Jobs' revolutionary catastrophe of a computer, the Apple Lisa, earned a brief

second life and then was buried for good.

Watch the Verge's documentary, Lisa's final act, now on YouTube.

Hey everybody, it's C9 from The Vergecast.

On this week's interview episode, I sat down with Andy Hawkins once again, our senior

transportation reporter.

We talked to Aurora CEO Chris Irmson.

Aurora's a new self-driving car startup.

They're really focused on the software package, on the cars themselves.

But Chris is really interesting, he used to be at Waymo, which is Google's self-driving

division.

He was at Carnegie Mellon, which is a hotbed of self-driving research talent.

So we talked about the industry, why it's so crazy, why all the people are suing each

other, why the talent, he was leaving from one company to another, how hard it is to

develop a self-driving car.

We talked about the first line of code, they sat down and wrote at Aurora, it's not what

you think, and it's way more complicated than I expected.

We also talked about whether it's going to happen.

This is the first question I ask every self-driving car person that comes on a show.

Is this going to happen?

They also yes, because they all run the companies.

...