From the ACLU, this is at Liberty.

I'm Emerson Sykes, a staff attorney here at the ACLU and your host.

This week, we have a conversation that was taped live at Brooklyn Public Library.

Our guest was Sergio De La Pava, a critically acclaimed novelist who won the Penn Bingham Prize

for his debut novel, Naked Singularity, in 2012, and recently released Lost Empress, a postmodern

epic on football, criminal justice, Joni Mitchell, and everything in between.

Mr. Dela Pava is not only the author of numerous books, he's also a full-time public defender,

having represented thousands of criminal defendants over the last two decades.

We'll discuss both his literary and legal work, as well as his approach to life.

Thank you. both his literary and legal work, as well as his approach to life. Good evening.

Thanks very much for coming out.

And thanks very much to the Brooklyn Public Library for hosting at Liberty for the second time.

I just wanted to maybe start by asking Sergio to do a brief reading to begin our conversation

tonight.

Thank you all for being here.

Nice to see you.

All right, let's see.

What would education look like if its ultimate goal were incarceration?

Where would it occur? There are many fertile possibilities. For example, in East New York, Brooklyn, you have Cypress Hills houses,

a housing project made up of 15, seven-story buildings that at times seems more penal than anything

the New York City Department of

Correction could ever devise.

...