From Cafe and the Vox Media Podcast Network, welcome to Stay Tuned.

I'm Pete Barara.

We are an aging, maybe dying, empire with a democratic heartbeat that was our justification

for being an empire.

And both of those are in a kind of state of decline and decay.

And I worry that if Trump or a Trump alike gets elected next year, that'll be it.

That's George Packer.

He's a staff writer at The Atlantic.

And for the past two decades, he's been one of the most incisive observers of American culture and politics.

I spoke with Packer about our turbulent present, a looming indictment of Donald Trump,

a presidential election around the corner, and an ongoing war in Ukraine.

We also discussed, and at times gently debated, a basic but important question.

Should we be optimistic about America's future?

That's coming up.

Stay tuned.

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