Welcome to Pushback. I'm Aaron Mate. As the Biden administration defends its withdrawal from

Afghanistan and the fallout from the Taliban takeover, I'm joined now by two veteran U.S.

service members who have long been warning that the war in Afghanistan was doomed

and immoral. Danny Sherson is a retired U.S. Army officer, senior fellow at the Center of International

Policy. He served combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan and later taught history at this point.

His latest book is a true history of the United States.

And Matthew Ho is a former Marine and State Department official

who resigned in protest from his post in Afghanistan

over U.S. policy in September 2009.

He is now a senior fellow at the Center for International Policy.

Danny and Matthew, welcome to pushback.

Thanks so much for having you.

So, Matt, let me start with you.

You resigned from your job serving in Afghanistan for the State Department over the failed

strategy, over the plans for the surge.

What is your response now to the U.S. finally withdrawing and this

quick Taliban takeover? Well, this is what defeat looks like. You know, if you choose for 20

years in Afghanistan, and even longer than that, I mean, there are lots of historical precedents

with the Afghan war, with the United States, helped instigate and

sustained and repelled, you know, starting in 1979, you know, as well as other wars. But the

idea, though, particularly over the last 20 years in Afghanistan, the United States has simply

chosen military victory as the outcome in the war.

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