Hello and welcome to the Times Tech podcast where every week we unpack how technology is reshaping business, culture and everyday life. I am Danny Fortson out here in Silicon Valley.

And I'm Katie Prescott, Katie in the city, the city of London. And this week, we're talking about how artificial intelligence is being used to wage war.

Yeah, nice and light fare this week.

Indeed, last week, U.S. President Donald Trump launched a major air attack on Iran,

and according to some reports, AI tools built by Anthropic,

the $380 billion company run by Dario Amadeh, friend of the pod, did play a role in those attacks.

But just hours before the strikes, he had declared that's Donald Trump, that the federal

government would end its use of those very

same tools. And he posted in his truth social account, quote, we don't need it. We don't want it.

And we will not do business with them. Again, exclamation point. Just to underline the point.

Yes, exactly.

So this feud between his administration and Anthropic has been months in the making

and centers on how its AI models can or how they do not want them to be used by the Pentagon.

He's not backwards in coming forwards, is he your president?

Some of those messages on truth social were quite extraordinary.

He described those anthropic as left-wing nut jobs.

So this is not just some sort of boring contractual to and fro between AI companies and the government.

I mean, it really speaks to something bigger.

Who gets to decide how AI, incredibly powerful AI systems, are used in war. And on one side, you've got this private

business, which is one of the leading developers of AI and on the other side, the Pentagon. And it sparked

this a huge debate really about what ethical means when it comes to national security.

That's right. And in a moment, we're going to bring on a great guest to talk about this. His name is

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