BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts. Hello and welcome to episode 323 of is a U-turn, a U-turn, or just the government changing its mind, or is it a partial U-turn which makes it more of a J-turn, a subject we've discussed a lot on this podcast, and we're going to do it again, this time, with Henry Zephman. Hello, Henry. Good morning, Adam. Good morning? Oh, gosh. It was good morning last time I was talking to you from this chat. Yes. Also, Henry and I were both on five live breakfast this morning at about five to seven. So, and it's now quarter past three in the afternoon. Henry, what is your take on how you judge whether something is a U-turn or not?

Because Chris and I have discussed many times before, in my mind, a U-turn has to be something

that reverts you back to your original position, as opposed to sort of partially going ahead

with something in a watered-down format.

I admire your stand for terminological coherence, but I think in political terms, a U-turn has probably become something a bit more nebulous

than that.

I see your point, though.

I mean, I do.

I actually think it is an unhelpful phrase because politicians might be willing to admit that

they've changed their policy.

But the phrase U-turn is so loaded that they get very anxious about admitting their view turned.

Because they're their peers and their colleagues.

It's a mark of weakness, whereas the public maybe might view it as just doing the right

thing.

I think issue by issue, that probably is how many members of the public feel.

However, the risk for any government, and we're probably at this stage with this government,

is that if you pile them up again and again, then it starts to look like a bigger story about the government.

This morning on Five Live, I repeat, at quarter to seven in the morning, we were discussing the number in the Times newspaper of government U-turns. They've taught it up to 13, but we both think that's a very generous interpretation of a U-turn that they're using there. There's also a very generous memory of the question you asked me, Adam, because you actually said, what's your number? Oh, yeah. Which I was completely ambushed by. And then I, a bit of behind the curtain here, I sort of rapidly tried to change the subject and divert, like I was a politician being grilled by you. Anyway, we've done a bit. No, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. I'm not bitter. Just, you know, nine hours on thinking

about it. We've done a bit of work at our end. I mean, I don't think we've come up with a

hard and fast BBC number. I think 13 is a bit unfair. There's things in there, which I don't

think are complete U-turns. For example, the income tax sort of fandango in the run up to the budget.

Where they were going to put it up and then decided not to.

...