The changing shape of British-Irish-Riddley relations was the focus of our last Red Lions conversation just before Easter.

Where does hard politics stop and soft power takeover have things improved under the leadership of Kirstarmer and Mihal Martin?

In today's companion piece, we're returning to that theme in the company of two writers

who've recently published books about Ireland, though neither of them are Irish.

In fact, one's English and one's Scottish,

and their very particular experiences of writing about a place they've both come to love

throw up some

revealing insights into how the people of Britain and Ireland see and understand each other. James

Hawes and Ian Dale, welcome to Red Lions.

Thank you.

Hello.

James, just to start with you, you lived in Ireland. You're married to a Duny Gouldwoman,

and you bravely took on the task of writing the shortest history of Ireland. How come?

My publisher asked what I wanted to do after the shortest histories of Germany and England have been very successful.

And I just said there's only one book I want to write in this Ireland.

It's a country I've known since the late 70s. I began my academic career at Maynooth, when it was still the headquarters of the

Irish hierarchy in a real sense. And I've just felt I've wanted to write about it more or less

ever since then, really. The book's been pretty well received in Ireland and Britain,

but most of the focus, I gather, has been on this side of the Irish sea.

Did that surprise you?

It did. I mean, the reaction in Ireland has been incredible.

I think we were actually currently, and last week,

...