When you start to believe that people are unchangeable, you're actually just doing your own movement.

If you really feel like the kind of political values you hold, powerful,

or meaningful, would make the society better, you should be profoundly optimistic

about the ability those values to conquer all kinds of communities and all kinds of moral frames.

So is it even possible to have genuinely open conversation that holds the potential?

To persuade someone to your point of view anymore, or have we entered a post-persuasion state?

And is so, is there a way to change that for the good?

As we all have navigated the last years of increasing conflict,

deep identity level disagreement, maybe you've noticed an increasing culture,

futility driven apathy. Social religious, political, and other views are increasingly seen as

unchangeable. So why even bother? Increasingly, people are just writing off

anyone who doesn't automatically see the world the way they do. It's just not worth the effort

they believe. The problem is, this assumption is not only wrong, but when we refuse to give others,

and even ourselves permission to ask questions, change minds, including our mind,

we're think differently than their current label or belief leads with. Well, who really wins

in either scenario? Nobody. This apathy only depends or reinforces divides, behaviors, and at scale

policies that may well cause large scale harm. So how do we break through? How do we move people back

into conversation and set the table for openness and maybe even persuasion to a different set of

ideas, beliefs, and actions? Our guest today, Anon Girardar Das, has been studying this very

question for years as a journalist, former New York Times columnist, author of several books,

including his latest book, The Persuaders at the front lines of the fight for hearts, minds,

and democracy. This best-selling book takes a look at the seeming lost art of social persuasion,

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