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The Michael Shermer Show

An Unfinished History of the Holocaust

The Michael Shermer Show

Michael Shermer

Dialogue, Science, Reason, Michaelshermer, Natural Sciences, Skeptic

4.4921 Ratings

🗓️ 19 March 2024

⏱️ 97 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

The Holocaust is much discussed, much memorialized, and much portrayed. But there are major aspects of its history that have been overlooked.

Spanning the entirety of the Holocaust, this sweeping history deepens our understanding. Dan Stone—Director of the Holocaust Research Institute at Royal Holloway, University of London—reveals how the idea of “industrial murder” is incomplete: many were killed where they lived in the most brutal of ways. He outlines the depth of collaboration across Europe, arguing persuasively that we need to stop thinking of the Holocaust as an exclusively German project. He also considers the nature of trauma the Holocaust engendered, and why Jewish suffering has yet to be fully reckoned with. And he makes clear that the kernel to understanding Nazi thinking and action is genocidal ideology, providing a deep analysis of its origins.

Drawing on decades of research, The Holocaust: An Unfinished History upends much of what we think we know about the Holocaust. Stone draws on Nazi documents, but also on diaries, post-war testimonies, and even fiction, urging that, in our age of increasing nationalism and xenophobia, it is vital that we understand the true history of the Holocaust.

Shermer and Stone discuss: what is unfinished in the history of the Shoah • Holocaust denial • psychology of fascist fascination and genocidal fantasy • alt-right • ideological roots of Nazism and German anti-Semitism • industrial genocide • magical thinking • Hitler’s willing executioners • the Holocaust as a continent-wide crime • motivations of the executioners • the banality of evil • Wannsee Conference (1942).

Dan Stone is Professor of Modern History and Director of the Holocaust Research Institute at Royal Holloway, University of London. He is the author or editor of numerous articles and books, including: Histories of the Holocaust (Oxford University Press); The Liberation of the Camps: The End of the Holocaust and its Aftermath (Yale University Press); and Concentration Camps: A Very Short Introduction (Oxford University Press). His new book is The Holocaust: An Unfinished History.

Transcript

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0:00.0

You're listening to the Michael Sherman Show. The Michael Sherber Show So thanks for coming on.

0:26.0

Thank you for having me.

0:28.0

It's pleasure to be here.

0:29.0

Okay, unfinished history. What's unfinished about the history of the Holocaust?

0:31.0

Okay, it's a good question.

0:33.8

I mean unfinished in two senses, really.

0:37.8

Firstly, I think that all history in a sense is unfinished. There's a kind of paradox that the subjects that are most

0:48.7

important to us, for whatever reason, are those that generate the most scholarly literature and popular literature.

0:54.6

In other words, even though we know a lot about a topic, we want to know more and more about it and

0:59.5

we want to keep reinterpreting it.

1:01.4

So I believe that all history in a sense is the

1:05.0

history is contemporary history. That's to say we always rewrite the past on the

1:09.6

basis of our present situation. The things that are going on in the present in a way shape

1:15.6

the questions that we ask of the past and so that's true when we think of the history of

1:19.6

the Holocaust even over the last 20 years the questions questions that show up, what counts as a source, what kinds of topics we're interested in, these things are always changing in the light of the wider culture. Historians are also people who live in broader society and so the things that are going on politically, culturally and so on are of course shaping the things that we're interested in.

1:39.7

So in that sense history is always unfinished.

1:41.7

But with respect to the Holocaust, I mean it in a second

1:44.2

sense, which is that the Holocaust didn't end in 1945. It did in an obvious sense, but of course for the survivors and their descendants it didn't the after effects are still felt and

1:59.4

As a huge literature on what we might now call I suppose aftermath studies of the Holocaust

2:06.6

from the DP camps to debates about Zionism the founding of Israel, Holocaust trials, Holocaust

2:12.2

film, debates about restitution, all of these things,

2:16.1

the books like you've written on Holocaust denial, show that the Holocaust remains an extremely

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