An Intense, Searching Conversation With Amjad Iraqi

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.6 • 11K Ratings

🗓️ 7 November 2023

⏱️ 65 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Before there can be any kind of stable coexistence of people in Israel and Palestine, there will have to be a stable coexistence of narratives. And that’s what we’ll be attempting this week on the show: to look at both the present and the past through Israeli and Palestinian perspectives. The point is not to choose between them. The point is to really listen to them. Even — especially — when what’s being said is hard for us to hear. Our first episode is with Amjad Iraqi, a senior editor at +972 magazine and a policy analyst at the Al-Shabaka think tank. We discuss the history of Gaza and its role within broader Palestinian politics, the way Hamas and the Israeli government under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reached a “violent equilibrium,” why Palestinians feel “duped” by the international community, what Hamas thought it could achieve with its attack, whether Israeli security and Palestinian liberty can coexist, Iraqi’s skepticism over peace resolutions that rely on statehood and nationalism, how his own identity as a Palestinian citizen of Israel offers a glimpse at where coexistence can begin and much more. Mentioned: Hamas Contained by Tareq Baconi The Only Language They Understand by Nathan Thrall Book Recommendations East West Street by Philippe Sands Orientalism by Edward Said The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones and Carole Sabouraud. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

Transcript

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0:00.0	From New York Times opinion, this is the Ezra Klein Show. I'm just going to try to say what we're doing this week as clearly as I can.
0:27.0	Before there can be any kind of stable coexistence of peoples in Israel and Palestine,
0:31.5	there's going to have to be a stable coexistence of
0:34.2	narratives. There's a line I love from mostly Klein of Levy's book,
0:38.2	Letters to my Palestinian neighbor, where he writes, quote, we must recognize not only each other's right to self-determination,
0:45.6	but also each side's right to self-definition.
0:48.8	So you could think of the episodes this week as a matched pair, you could think of it as one episode in two parts.
0:54.0	But one is going to be on this moment and the background to it through Palestinian eyes,
0:58.7	and the other on this moment and the background to it through Israeli eyes.
1:03.0	Obviously nobody can speak for whole people.
1:05.7	These are just what they claim to be.
1:07.1	Historically and journalistically informed perspectives, there are many more.
1:11.9	I didn't find everything in these conversations easy to hear. I doubt
1:14.9	you will either. I didn't agree with everything I heard and I doubt you will either. But that's
1:21.1	not the spirit in which I'm trying to do these. The point at least for me is to simply try and hold these perspectives at the same time because somehow this land, this cursed sacred bloody scar of land, is going to have to hold them and more
1:36.0	My guest today is Amjad Iraqi. He's a senior editor at 972 magazine and a policy analyst at the think tank al-Shabaca.
1:43.0	He's written for the London View of Books and The Guardian and formerly worked at Adala,
1:47.4	the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel.
1:50.0	I appreciated him having this conversation with me.
1:52.0	This is not easy stuff to talk about.
1:54.4	I got a lot from it and I hope that you do too.
1:56.8	As always my email as a recline show at nytimes.com. I'm Zadaraki.
	...

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