This is In Conversation from Apple News.

I'm Shemitabasu.

Today, the undercover FBI agent who infiltrated America's neo-Nazi groups.

If you've ever seen photos of modern-day militia groups or white supremacist groups,

you've probably noticed some common themes among the members.

Mostly men, mostly white, in tactical gear, with tattoos, bandanas, and patches displaying their beliefs.

And if my guest today, Scott Payne, were in one of those photos,

you probably wouldn't be able to tell him apart from the rest of them.

I usually say it jokingly, but I'm like, these are my people.

When I say these are my people, I'm not saying a white supremacist group are my people.

I'm just saying my skill set and my look and what I do leads me to those

kind of cases. Scott is a retired FBI agent who spent part of his career undercover in American

hate groups. He's out with a new book called Code Name Pale Horse, How I Went Undercover to

Expose America's Nazis. It's a remarkable account, not only of his singular career, but also of the many criminal

and hate groups that are operating in America today.

You've got, I'm not going to say millions, like there's millions of white supremacists and

Nazis are going to be on your doorstep tomorrow, but let's just say that there are

thousands and people are still being recruited.

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, as of 2023, there were 165 active white nationalist

groups in the United States, the highest number ever recorded.

During Scott's time in the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force, he worked several

cases inside these groups. In one case, his undercover persona actually went through the ceremony

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