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Hello and welcome to the Americano podcast, a series of discussions about American politics, power and prejudices. It is 2025 and Donald Trump is president once again of the United States.

We will, of course, be following the moves of the Donald and his second administration very

closely. However, it won't just be politics for us this year. We'll also talk a lot and cover

American culture, life and the arts.

I should also remind you, because my producer Natasha will not let me hear the end of it,

that we are on Spectator TV. So head to our YouTube channel to watch that.

Today we are going to be talking about Black Lives Matter, the second in our series about Black Lives Matter,

because we are approaching the fifth anniversary of that summer, that extraordinary summer of

2020 when the world seemed to be going madder than ever. And I'm delighted to be

joined to discuss this subject by Heather MacDonald, who is a fellow at the Manhattan Institute,

and the author of When Race Trump's Merit. Heather, you're joining us from California. Thank you for

coming on. Five years on from Black Lives Matter,

how do you look back at that summer? It was a summer of absolute anarchy and the near collapse of

civilization whose effects continue to be felt today every time an American goes to a drugstore and finds that

the toothpaste is locked up and the criminals who are at risk of stealing it or not, we have

ratcheted down our expectations for civilized behavior. We live on the edge of yet more mass looting events,

mass anarchic, anarchid events just this last Saturday in Los Angeles. There was a rampaging crowd

that covered police cars with graffiti right next to them, broke windows, covered

...