Brian Mayer on WNYC, and for those of you who've been listening since the top of the show,

you know that I tried to introduce one of the nation's great historians here on President's Day, and then we had

some kind of technical or other kind of problem, and John Meacham wasn't there. So the bicycle

guests hopped on real quick, so thanks again to Neil and Sophia for doing that. They were

going to be the second guests today. Maybe you don't need to know all this housekeeping,

but if you were listening

at the top, you know we were going to have John Meacham, but we didn't yet have John Meacham. So now,

one of the nation's great historians of presidents in particular for this president's day,

and of the major themes of American history overall, John Meacham, who in 2022 published a biography of Abraham Lincoln,

and of course President's Day is sort of this combination of Washington's birthday and Lincoln's

birthday, his book called And There Was Light, Abraham Lincoln and The American Struggle.

He has also written books about President Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, and the American Struggle. He has also written books about President's Andrew Jackson, Franklin Roosevelt, Thomas Jefferson, and George H.W. Bush, I don't think I'm

leaving any out. And for this moment in history, John Meacham has a new book called American Struggle,

Democracy, Descent, and the P the pursuit of a more perfect union.

John, it's always an honor to have you on the show. Welcome back to WNYC.

You're very kind. I love being described in such superlative terms, but I can't tell the

difference between Eastern and Central Time. So that may undercut.

That may undercut the generous introduction.

So that's what happened at 10 o'clock.

I see that the words American struggle appear in the title of both your new book

and your Lincoln book, Abraham Lincoln and the American Struggle,

and now American Struggle. What do you mean by American Struggle? The perpetual, perennial debate

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