Have you ever been told that you're too much, too assertive, too aggressive, too comfortable

advocating for yourself? Or maybe you've been told the complete opposite that you're not enough,

not forceful enough. You don't take up enough space. You're too nice. If you're a woman and you

strive to lead, then the chances are at some point in your career, you've been told

that you're too much or not enough. I find this all incredibly frustrating and fascinating,

and so I wrote a book about it. It's called The Likeability Trap. Since I can't interview myself,

I mean, I could, but that would be weird.

Juleika and Tiguille, Antigua Williams, our executive producer, is here to help me break down why this matters and what to do about it.

Hi, Alicia.

Thank you for allowing me to convince you to do this.

It only took you about a year.

So after reading your book, I felt both personally attacked because I generally feel like I am

likable, but maybe I could put a little bit more effort into being like.

But then I also felt cheered on for precisely the same reason, because I am so much about

the work all the time. And so I felt validated in that because I am so much about the work all the time.

And so I felt validated in that because I was like, at the end, what matters is the work?

So you are someone who's actually very easy to like.

You are intensely charismatic, extremely personable.

What led you to land on the issue of likability as a trap? Let me tell you story.

My grandmother, once I was interviewing her about our family, and I had her go through all the

grandchildren and describe all of us. And I asked her to describe me. And she was like, oh, you were just,

as a child, just go, go, just always had an agenda. And then I asked her about my younger brother

...