There is nothing automatic about technological progress bringing these gains.

During almost every episode of major technological transitions,

what we see is that A, there are many losers from that process as you pointed out,

but even more importantly B, the phase of widespread gains did not arise by itself or automatically.

It was almost always a struggle to get there.

It is my pleasure to welcome to the podcast.

One of my favorite academics, so this is my first time having him on the podcast.

The co-author of Power and Progress, our 1000-year struggle over technology and prosperity,

MIT Economics and Poverty researcher and professor Darren S. Moglu, Darren, welcome.

Thank you, Andrew. It's a true pleasure to be here with you.

The pleasure is all mine. Wow, what a book this was.

I mean, we'll go into the idea behind it, but I cited you in the war on normal people

about your research on rising deaths of despair and struggles of poverty in America.

How did you come to that work?

I use a quote from you where you were stunned by the findings, which was that American life expectancy was actually going down, not up.

Yeah, I mean, I think this is part of a broader trend.

A number of people have noted what a striking reversal this is,

if you look at US data, data for other industrialized nations, even almost all developing countries in the 20th, 20th and 21st century,

you see this striking increase in life expectancy.

And in the United States, in the 2010s, you see a reversal.

People who really build on that and develop that at great length with a fantastic book is our Angostitan and Angkeys.

And I draw on their work.

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