More than three years since the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine, warfare has been transformed by drones.  Reports have stated that 70 percent of combat casualties in the war in Ukraine are now caused by drones, while the British security think tank RUSI calculates drones account for 60 to 70 percent of damaged and destroyed Russian systems. Ukraine, forced to innovate to hold off Russian forces, claims to be capable of making 4 million drones this year, Russia says it made 1.4 million in 2024 – using them, along with Iranian made systems, on the battlefield and in near constant attacks on Ukrainian cities and civilian infrastructure.  To discuss the ethics, capabilities and impact of drones on the way humans fight, Gavin Esler is joined by Dr Ulrike Franke, senior fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations. • This episode of This Is Not A Drill is supported by Incogni, the service that keeps your private information safe, protects you from identity theft and keeps your data from being sold. There’s a special offer for This Is Not A Drill listeners – go to https://incogni.com/notadrill to get an exclusive 60% off your annual plan. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. www.podmasters.co.uk Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices