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For me, something that is also concerning is how contradictory it is to sort of imagine that capitalism is a system given its history.

Given its rationale for the transatlantic slave trade, given its rationale for treating our ancestors like property and all the horrific things that are tied to that,

it makes no sense for us to want to align ourselves with that system and believe that somehow because there are small pockets and few individuals having major, major massive gains

that somehow equates to community transformation that somehow equates to lack of being liberated.

You are listening to Upstream.

Upstream.

Upstream.

An interview and documentary series that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew about economics.

I'm Dela Duncan.

And I'm Robert Raymond.

In this conversation, we spoke with Nikki Franco, aka Venus Roots.

Nikki is a Caribbean abolitionist, community organizer, multidisciplinary cultural worker, writer, podcaster, and facilitator of spaces for collective study.

Currently based in Miami, Nikki serves as the political education director for FEM power MIA and civic engagement organizer for PowerU Center for Social Change.

We spoke with her about abolition, the phenomenon of black capitalism, the insidious nature of neoliberal feminism,

capitalism's tendency towards co-opting its own opposition, disaster capitalism amidst COVID, why Instagram is probably bad for us, and much more.

Welcome, Nikki, to Upstream.

And yeah, I'm wondering if just to start, you could sort of introduce yourself to our listeners and maybe talk a little bit about how you came to do the work that you're doing.

Yeah, hi Robbie, thanks so much for having me.

So yeah, Nikki, I am a community organizer, I'm also a cultural worker, and have been up to, you know, kind of the work of thinking through abolition alternatives, and kind of how we begin to slowly dismantle like the tentacles of the beast,

...